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Chapter 7: Real Hope for Your Loved One Who Have Died-Part I

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Greetings!  It’s been a little bit since I’ve written.  The hustle and bustle Christmas and New Year's coupled with running around and another project I’ve been working on (it’s a big one) prevented any visits.  However, I’m back. 

So to catch you up on things, I’ve been working on a project that spans the history of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.  That’s the only hint you’ll get is here:

 

For over a century, delightful, correct words of truth covering every aspect of life have been presented in the Watch Tower Society’s publications and widely distributed in many languages. 
The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom.  December 15, 1990 p. 26 

 

With that little teaser in mind, let’s turn our attention to our slow slog through the introductory booklet, “What Does the Bible Really Teach?”  The seventh chapter pertains to death, the resurrection, and what happens.  If you take the time to read through this chapter, this is material that is already covered in prior chapters.  There is not a ton that is very new here.  If you happen to be someone who is working with a Witness to get them out of this organization, this is a good chapter to bring back old questions that have been asked.  This is necessary as they may be exposed to a question one time and then simply forget. 

 

There’s not much in here that’s new that you may not know, but here’s how the meeting went.

 

We exchanged pleasantries and checked on how we were doing.  Given the last time I saw them (the custodian’s husband is sick so it’s the gentleman who was very upset when I had him read Phil. 2:5-11) and I almost asked how Christmas went.  I caught myself and we started talking about smartphone cases.  I’ve been having a run of bad luck and we had a pretty good laugh about it.  I had also noticed that the elder had a Field Service Report form to report time spent in the “ministry” trying to get the people to join the organization.  As we turned to the opening questions, it was reiterated that these questions will be answered as we go though the paragraphs in our “bible study.” 

 

There was a heavy emphasis upon Lazarus and how Jehovah and Jesus feel about death.  The first time I answered I ended up giving a long answer.  My response inadvertently spilled over into the next question.  It was a nearly automatic response for them to ask it regardless.  So I simply answered with the same response to ensure they understood. 

 


The fellow who was a stand in for the day talked about a personal experience regarding comfort which is addressed a little in paragraph five.  He was speaking about how he was out in field service and approached a guy.  The guy said “Merry Christmas.”  I immediately interjected, “that went nowhere.”  A lot of laughter ensues.  Once we were done laughing, he talked further how during the holiday season people get depressed and this guy was no different.  He ended up being unable to talk at all.  This was used as a springboard into Lazarus. 

 

I had addressed Lazarus previously and what the bible speaks about in relation to Lazarus in Luke 19, which the organization conveniently leaves out.  This of course went to “soul sleep” which the organization believes is “biblical truth.” 

 

The thirteenth paragraph is the one that was interesting as everything is ascribed to Jehovah as the sole creator.  I didn’t press them but just read John 1:3 or any other verse that pertains to Jesus as the creator. Look to the section “Creator” here.  Those were just some of the verses that came to mind. 

 

The fifteenth and sixteenth paragraphs speak about the resurrection.  They asked me who will get resurrected.  I said, “there’s a resurrection of the just and the unjust.”  It took me a moment but I had to look up where that one was from-Acts 24:15.  The seventeenth paragraph speaks about John 5:28, 29 and emphasizes the word all.  Make a note of that and this becomes a slight bit of contention later on. 

 

An interesting point that I didn’t bring up is partially mentioned in the next paragraph.  Hebrews 11 is mentioned regarding the Old Testament/Hebrew Scripture saints.  The organization talks of people living on earth.  However, it’s interesting if we in the present day are to model our behavior, we should be like these individuals in verse 16 that says, “But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven” (New World Translation).

 

The nineteenth and twentieth paragraphs is were I brought up the objection.  Remember the line where “everyone would be resurrected?”  Well that seemingly went by the way side.  The first three lines simply say, “What about all the prowl who did not serve or obey Jehovah because they never knew about him?  These billions of “unrighteous” ones will not be forgotten.  They too will be resurrected and given time to learn about the true God and to serve him.  Biblically speaking, the organization doesn’t really look much at this verse: For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable” (New World Translation).  I merely asked this, “what about those who heard the true message of the gospel and completely rejected it?”  The answer I got in response was to read paragraph 20.

 

I read it and didn’t feel satisfied with the answer at all.  I said, the bible says that all will be resurrected (just and unjust).  The early conversation for this chapter says the exact same thing.  However, now there’s a difference (contradiction).  So I said, “please let me clarify.  We talked about the just.  There is the unjust.  Now we have a segment of the unjust (being those who rejected the gospel) and this now means they are to not be resurrected?  The second Witness held his temper this time but you could see from his facial expression that he seemed to have “got it.” 

 

The main elder at this point could only reply to “look at the Appendix” and that will give further insight.  The paragraphs don’t have enough space to expound upon everything.  From there we were done with the study portion.  The elder asked to use the bathroom.  While sitting with the now stumped Witness, I asked how his grandkids were doing.  Everything was fine and I figured, to ask another question.  I asked if he had seen the Leah Remini documentary, “Leaving Scientology.”  He hadn’t.  So I brought the following chart to mind I found online recently. 

 

So he said he knows nothing about Scientology so I was afforded the opportunity to speak a little about the foundation of this group.  I was able to speak about how one advances and speak in a loose parallel regarding how the organization operates.  By this time the main elder was back out from the bathroom and he dropped the “C” word-cult.  He just started speaking about cults without a problem even though he doesn’t realize he is in one when you define it based on information here in this page.  He was talking about the problems and the secrecy involved in cults.  However, he seems to not correlate the Watchtower’s actions with that of Scientology.  He spoke about how Leah Remini had left and there are other defectors.  They are now working to expose the inner workings.  As they are saying this, I just sat and realized these two know absolutely nothing regarding the former Witness community and how they’ve been working at exposing the organization.  This is just one such website: JW Leaks

 

With that he also said how Jesus is the head of their congregation.  Even though he believes that, he doesn’t recognize that everything starts and is run by the governing body.    We closed things down for the day as they are there for 1.5 hours.  Pray that the direct contradiction within the material won’t settle with the stand in Witness.  Please continue to pray for my JW friends. 

Chapter 6: Where Are The Dead

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Remember the gentleman that said “there’s no way that Jesus can be God and got upset about it?”  Well, to my surprise, he was back as the local elder wasn’t here.  He had a wedding last week so for whatever reason, this week he was unable to attend this week.

As a side note prior to a recap of this week, I’ve notice that the custodian’s husband, whenever he is there with someone different, he is basically “forced” to be the one to take the lead.  Why?  I don’t know.  So there wasn’t much in terms of chit chat but we will jump in.  Prior to doing so, here is a common point about not just Jehovah’s Witnesses but those who have some doctrinal overlap like the Seventh Day Adventists.  The notion of soul sleep.  Here’s the official Seventh Day Adventist page that contains the following quote, “The Bible tells us that "the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and that the very day that they die, their "thoughts perish" (Psalm 146:4, KJV).”

This is based upon their belief that the body is made up solely of what is contained within the body.  I was able to get a solid confirmation from them about this as well.  Without delving too much into this, here’s a verse that shows the body is three parts: “May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely.  And may the spirit and soul and body of you brothers, sound in every respect, be preserved blameless at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ,” I Thessalonians 5:23 (New World Translation).  Here’s where there is a difference between the Jehovah’s Witnesses and mainstream Christianity.  With that in mind, let’s get started.

The opening paragraphs of this chapter of “What Does The Bible Really Teach” as always try to lay the foundation for what will happen throughout the chapter.  Paragraph three is where the organization tries to reinforce the “us verses them” mentality.  It sums up everything by “world’s religions” on pages 57 and 58. 

The first major heading “What Really Happens At Death” is summed up (according to what the organization believes) in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.  However, what these folks are not encouraged to do is look at this verse (or many others) in the context that was originally intended.  They don’t seem to realize that Ecclesiastes is a book that deals with contrast.  Things got interesting starting on page 59, “What Jesus Said About Death.” 

The subject addressed is Lazarus and the cited scripture is John 11:11-14.  Lazarus is seen as sleeping.  This long paragraph has a number of contradictions to the New World Translation.  So I couldn’t really wait any longer and said (innocently enough) “I believe there’s another set of verses that deal with him.”  We turned to Luke 16:19-31.  I’d encourage you to read through this passage since Jesus spoke both times and He obviously wouldn’t contradict himself.  Here’s some of the key verses (all verses are from the New World Translation). 

16:22-Now in the course of time, the beggar died and was carried off by the angels to Abraham’s side.  “Also, the rich man died and was buried.

16:23-And in the Grave he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and he saw Abraham from afar and Lazʹa·rus by his side.

16:25-But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you had your fill of good things in your lifetime, but Lazʹa·rus for his part received bad things. Now, however, he is being comforted here, but you are in anguish.

So the first response I got from the custodian’s husband was, “A guy I work with bought this up just this week.” (Interesting how the Holy Spirit works, one passage, twice in one week).  He continued by saying, “I talked to a sister in the hall and she pointed me to this scripture-Matthew 13:34.  We turned there and it says, “All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them,” and that’s how he said the story of Lazarus and the rich man is to be understood, as a parable.  When people die, he said they don’t all get to go to heaven either.   

I pushed back some at this point by starting at verse 33 which says it’s about the “kingdom of heaven.”  I continued further by asking them to imagine themselves present with Jesus.  Lazarus was a real person and for whatever reason, the rich man who remained nameless existed as well.  Given that in that day, people who are rich wouldn’t be hard to figure out, they would have certainly known who he actually was.  I further carried this by asking them to make the puzzle pieces fit.  The paragraph says, “notice that Jesus compared death to sleep.  Lazarus was neither in heaven nor in a burning hell.  He was not meeting angels or ancestors, What Does the Bible Really Teach? p. 59.  Here’s the points I was able to bring up based upon the key verses I listed earlier:

  1. Lazarus and the Rich man were wide awake. 
  2. One was being tormented, the other being comforted.
  3. They were talking which shows that they weren’t sleeping. 
  4. Lazarus is with Abraham.  Abraham was an ancestor. 

To answer directly regarding the “all people go to heaven” I have a publisher’s note at the bottom of the page that summarized says, “Hades was the place for disembodied spirits at death prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” 

I was able to go on and say, “not to be speaking for your coworker but I believe he has the following verses in mind”:

II Corinthians 5:8-But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21-24-For in my case, to live is Christ+ and to die is gain.  Now if I am to live on in the flesh, this is a fruitage of my work; yet what I would choose, I do not make known.  I am torn between these two things, for I do desire the releasing and the being with Christ, which is, to be sure, far better.  However, it is more necessary for me to remain in the flesh for your sakes.

I was able to link everything due to the Holy Spirit working.  The response that I got, “we have to do more research on this one.”  Another thing said was, “to be honest, I don’t know how to answer this one.”  He said this in part as he admitted he doesn’t know everything.  I chimed in, if any of us did, we’d be God.  To this we all started chuckling some.  However, I let this go as when something like that is said, it means one thing, they cannot rectify the Watchtower and the Bible.   This is fine as a seed has now been planted for them. 

At this point though, they talked kind of to themselves saying there’s a Watchtower article that tells them more about Lazarus and the Rich Man.  We hopped onto the organizations official website.  We navigated to this passage in Luke 16. 

The “plus signs” are for references.  The “asterisks” are for the literal rendering.  Verses 22 and 23 both have this contained within the asterisks, “Lit., ‘to the bosom of Abraham.’” You can view this in the JW Library app or the online New World Translation.  The other guy said at this point, there are Watchtower resources that should be available to read that give further insight.  This bought up yet another sidebar regarding that.  One thing was the change in smoking.  It was permissible until 1973.  Also in the 1970s, they went from having one elder per congregation to multiple ones.  The rationale, “the organization wanted to do things in line with the bible.”  I didn’t respond openly but why would it take nearly 100 years (first Watchtower was printed in 1879) for the organization to reach this conclusion? 

I asked why is selected material available only from 2000 to present day.  I was told that in short, “the light gets brighter.  As we learn new truth, we have to adjust.”  They had said that the WT Library CD-ROM goes back much further. 

What came to mind is an article that talks about how the organization is cutting back EVERYWHERE.  Here’s the article for your reading leisure that lists all of the newly discontinued reading publications.   I asked why is that available to just you and not everyone.  Response, “we don’t want people to get confused.”  It’s primarily a tool for us to use in research.  I didn’t give much by way of response but what they don’t realize is that a simple Google search will bring it up.  He also said there’s material available from the 1930s on it.  This is a falsehood as I’ve seen the contents of this CD and it doesn’t completely goes back to the 1950s.  There are publications such as Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, released in 1966 that started the fervor for what was supposed to happen in 1975 that are not included.    

So as we progressed through the chapter, they talked about the resurrection based on page 63 paragraph 13.  They said that there will be a resurrection of the “righteous and “unrighteous.”  This will allow those who are unrighteous to have another chance.  They will have a chance due to not being told about Jehovah or if they were influenced into a bad life from the time of their youth.  I let them run with this a bit but I was reminded of Romans 1:20 when he said this.  It says (New World Translation), “For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.” 


That verse says an awful lot.  Every sunrise, sunset, animal, waterfall, picture of space speaks to what has been created.  Again I let it go as the other guy was on good terms and I wanted to keep it that way. 

With that, we worked at finishing up the rest of the chapter.  Again, full of errors and contradictory statements but I didn’t feel compelled to press them.  Please pray as I said I’d text the custodian’s husband the verses that deal with life after death and that he would take it to heart.  Also, if you’d pray that the passage dealing with Lazarus would be studied upon in contrast with what the organization has said.

Who Is Jesus Part II

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Today was a very interesting one and we got to one of the core Watchtower doctrines.  I open the door and the main conductor (who is one of the local hall elders) says, “you look like you’ve been losing weight.”  I’m like, “I don’t think I am but it’s possible.”  Before we got to that, the main conductor was back and we caught up.  They wanted to know how my week went at work.  So I filled them in.  In short, I’m doing work and someone else is taking the credit for it.  Hence he doesn’t have to do anything.  It happens but whatever.  We chatted about situations like that in the workplace.  The main conductor is having an inspection at work.  He said “I’ve been quite busy and I know what it’s like.”

So we start digging in with a slight recap from last week.  The other Witness (the janitor’s husband) says, “I was looking for that verse that has the word “other” inserted.  I showed him where it was (Colossians 1:16, 17) and we had a bit of a conversation with this.  He said there was a verse that we talked about where it was Jehovah who worked as creator (Isaiah 44:24 where Jehovah acts alone).  The main conductor wasn’t very pleased and we talked about the term “firstborn.”  I read the definition from the “Annotated Strong’s Dictionary” in the back of my New American Standard.  The conductor immediately rejected the notion regarding Jesus being anything but first created.  I re-explained everything such as the children of Israel naming order from the Old Testament/Greek Scriptures to where they are listed in Revelation.  We ended up in the Revelation 7 which is where Judah is listed as the first tribe.  This led into a brief discussion of the 144,000.  I flat out asked after they explained, “so half of the verse is figurative (the tribal names) and the other half is literal (the 12,000 per tribe).  The response I received was along the lines of, “since Jehovah is done with Israel, it is a spiritual group.”  In my mind, I was thinking, “if God is truly done, why has Israel come back together as a state in 1948?  I spoke to the 144,000 as best I could and bought in the term “other sheep” which they are part of.  I spoke how the Mormons consider the “other sheep” to be the Native Americans.  They started laughing at that notion.  We were actually able to bring in Nelson Barbour into the conversation a little as well since he and Charles Take Russell associated with one another. 

So we stated at this point digging into the text.  We picked up on page 42, paragraph 15.  Nothing super notable happened as we went through.  However, on page 46, the verse referenced at the top of the page is I Peter 2:21-23 (New World Translation), In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you,+ leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. 22  He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. 23  When he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One who judges righteously. 

As an elder, he is well aware that he has access to the “secretive” elder’s manual titled, Shepherd the Flock of God.  There are the monthly Body of Elder’s Manuals and Letters.  There’s the child abuse database that the Watchtower will not acknowledge.  Here’s one story regarding it here at PBS.

The one website that deals with this issues is Silent Lambs. 

Here’s another resource that you may find handy for insight.

Back to our subject matter.  The last two paragraphs were where we spend 45 minutes in deep discussion.

I asked the question, “What does the organization believe about the resurrection of Jesus?”  The elder said, “We believe what the bible teaches.”  So I ask, “what happened to Jesus’ body?”  The answer I got was, “Jehovah dissolved it into nothing.”  That was my time to capitalize on this.  So I said, let’s read I Peter 3:18.  It’s rendered in the New World Translation this way, For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 

Notice the words, “made alive in the spirit.”  The Jehovah’s Witness essentially sees, “Jesus was made into a spirit.”  This is where things got interesting.  The main conductor had to use the bathroom so I waited for him to get back and I said, “this isn’t completely fitting with what I see in the bible, do you mind taking a look at some verses?”  “Of course not” is the response I get.  So here we go, I read the following verses :

Matthew 27:60-66

John 2:18-21

Luke 24:37-43

From there, I explained things.  Let’s address each one:

I Peter 3:18-I explained that being made alive in the spirit is completely different from being made into a spirit. 

Matthew 27:60-66-The question I asked is this, “if Jesus was to be raised as a spirit, what really was the point of the rock in front of the tomb since Jehovah was ‘going to dissolve the body (the guards would have prevented the body from being taken)?’” 

John 2:18-21-The simple question is this, “How could Jesus raise up a physical body if it was going to be dissolved and he be raised as a spirit?”  This is the set of verses that became a HUGE sticking point.

Luke 24:37-43-“Why is Jesus openly declaring that he is NOT a spirit and demonstrates this by being handled and eating food?”

I posed all of this as an “individual who’s on the outside looking in.”  I wanted a good explanation. 

This is where the battle began.  On one hand, as I’m asking these questions, the other JW admitted, “I see why you’re saying there’s a physical body for Jesus at the resurrection (that was a big open admission but the elder quickly tried to take control).

The notion of “believing what the bible teaches” was paid lip service.  The verses above are not only what the organization refuses to believe but it’s in stark contrast with organizational teaching.  That’s the battle-is the bible correct which contradicts the organization or the organization correct which contradicts the bible?

So the elder “strikes back.”  The most devastating set of verses was Luke to him where Jesus is declaring, “I’m not a spirit.”  He says, well you know, the bible says, “flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of heaven.”  I wholeheartedly agreed with him (I Corinthians 15:50).  He bought in Hebrews 9:12, 13 as well.  I said was able to directly address using I Peter 3:18 (made alive in the spirit) and Luke 24:37-43.  I responded that Jesus prior to his death had a body just like ours where blood is “what made it go.”  However, his resurrection body was one that wasn’t made alive by blood, but it was “made alive by the spirit.”  I again agreed with the verse in Hebrews.  However, in the Watchtower mindset, one becomes a “spirit creature” when resurrected. 

He stated that angels can materialize and take different forms.  This again I agreed with.  However, if Jesus would have done that he’d have violated I Peter since it would be considered “deceit” in the aspect that he would have “manufactured" the wounds in his body.  The janitor’s husband bought up the “sons of God and daughters of men” from Genesis.  I agreed that could have been the case.  The conductor further tried to bring in another set of scriptures.  He brought up the account on the Road to Emmaus covered in Luke 24:13-22.  He asked me for a quick synopsis of this passage.  So I gave it and knowing the little bit about Watchtower theology, I knew where he was going to go.  He focused on verse 16 which says (NWT), but their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 

So I used a simple word picture as an illustration.  I said, (pointing to the elder) you are Jesus in this instance.  John (not the janitor’s husband’s real name) and myself are on the road to Emmaus.  Jesus (elder) didn’t change his form.  The eyes of myself and John were prevented. We were personally prevented, you (Jesus) didn’t change at all nor does the scriptures say so.  This didn’t go over well since the organization teaches Jesus materialized in different forms.  So he goes for soul sleep….

I’m asked to look at Ecclesiastes 9:5.  I’m like isn’t this about soul sleep?  They said, yes it is.  Hence Jesus could not have raised himself from the grave.  I thought about connecting this to Romans 10:9 and I Peter 1:21 where “God raised Jesus” from the dead and connecting this back to John 2:18-21.  However, I didn’t.  The seed was already planted and I was allowing them to do damage control at this point.  I briefly bought in Revelation 6:9-11 where individuals who were slain are “crying out and speaking”  This means one is conscious after death.  However, I allowed them to give an explanation and again asked, “what’s symbolic and what’s literal?  So I said, we can address soul sleep another day.  Both sides agreed to finish for the day. 

Normally they want to chit chat but today was not the day.  Please pray for these fellas as in the case of one (janitor’s husband) he is receptive in some ways to what I say and he’s making the attempt to “be a Barean” and search the scriptures with what I’m saying.  The elder is a bit of a different matter.  He listens to what I have to say yet I get the Watchtower “scripted answer.”  Also, I was requested to find information on what the Jews thought in relation to the afterlife, is it a conscious existence or an unconscious one?  Please remember to pray for these folks.