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Chapter 7: Real hope for Your Loved One Who Have Died-Part II

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Today was the first day that my friends and myself were able to meet in the past three weeks.  Both sides have had respective engagements that prevented us from “studying” What Does the Bible Really Teach? 

 

Before we really get into this, I’ve noticed that only the elder will come as the “lead” and he substitutes if sick with a “brother from the hall” who perhaps he has confidence in that can answer my questions sufficiently. 

 

As is the norm, they like to interact with the kids by saying hello when they first walk in.  Both are grandparents so they relate as their grandkids ages overlap with my kids.  They had just started The Good Dinosaur movie so the elder asked if I saw it to which I replied, “I haven’t.”  One of my kids then says, “Grandma and Pappy have it.”  So this bought some laughter with us.    

 

We were to supposed to start on paragraph 21 on page 73, however, they said it was paragraph 17 which is fine as the 21st paragraph was going to be the sticking point and major contention.  The section is under, “All those in the Memorial Tombs.”  One thing that is related to this that’s been “forgotten” is from Johannes Greber which says the following:

The translation by Johannes Greber (1937) of these verses reads as follows: “Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those were tossed upright.  In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.”  Aid to Bible Understanding.  1971 p. 1134

What happened in 1983 is the organization stopped using him after being caught knowing he was involved in spiritism.

 

They asked if I had read the Appendix pages 212-213 that deal with the Sheol and Hades to which I hadn’t done yet.  We covered paragraph 18 and I just instinctively used the name of Rahab from a sermon I once heard.  Chatting a bit about that, she was most likely according to the writer of Hebrews and supported by phrases in the Bible, a young woman.  They seemed intrigued so I went on and talked a little further.  I asked if they’d be interested to hear more and surprisingly, they said they were.  So I said, I’d email them the message to them.  Hopefully, they’ll actually listen as it’s a fascinating message.

 

Paragraph 19 on page 72 says the following, “What about all the people who did not serve or obey Jehovah because they never knew about him?”  The paragraph goes on to say that every body will get a chance to hit the “reset” button.  Essentially, the Watchtower teaches-if you don't accept the message this time, you can do it again when the resurrection happens.  This is again a direct contradiction of Romans 1:20 but we’ll let go. 

 

The question I asked was this, “What about those who purposely chose to not serve or obey after hearing the message of truth?”  The custodian’s husband simply stared at me.  Not in anger mind you but as one who never heard a question like this before.  This was so different since it goes against their “second chance theology.”  

 

Essentially what then happened is the elder said, “well all judgment is done by Jehovah (all judgment given to the Son in John 5:22) and I can’t place myself in that position.”  While he explained, I looked at the custodian’s husband and he couldn’t really “shake” the question I had asked.  The elder eventually said, “well, the organization can’t have every little thing written down and answered in the paragraph.  It’s in Jehovah’s hands”

 

They did their best to tie it in with paragraph 20.  Here’s the counter (read I Peter 4:5) and I didn’t want to fight this one as I focused on the next paragraph which is where we will focus our attention. 

 

The paragraph on page 73 says the following, “The Bible also refers to another kind of resurrection, one to life as a spirit creature in heaven.  Only one example of this type of resurrection is recorded in the Bible, that of Jesus Christ.”  I allowed them to go through paragraph 22.  At this point, once we answered the questions, I asked this question, “Why does the organization not cover all the verses about Jesus and the resurrection?”  They both just kind of looked at me.  Side note-the organization teaches them some verses on a particular topic, but not all.  I said, you may know where I’m going but let’s take a look at John 2:18-21 (I bought this passage up previously). 

 

John 2:18-21 says the following from the New World Translation:

18 Therefore, in response the Jews said to him: “What sign can you show us, since you are doing these things?”

19  Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20  The Jews then said: “This temple was built in 46 years, and will you raise it up in three days?”

21  But he was talking about the temple of his body.

22  When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples recalled that he used to say this, and they believed the scripture and what Jesus had spoken.

 

The other direct account follows: 

Luke 24:36-45 (New World Translation):

36  While they were speaking of these things, he himself stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.”

37  But because they were terrified and frightened, they imagined that they were seeing a spirit.

38  So he said to them: “Why are you troubled, and why have doubts come up in your hearts?

39  See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have.”

40  And as he said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

41  But while they were still not believing for sheer joy and amazement, he said to them: “Do you have something there to eat?”

42  So they handed him a piece of broiled fish,

43 and he took it and ate it before their eyes.

44  He then said to them: “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.”

45  Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures,

 

The last time these verses were brought forth raised a significant negative reaction.  However, this time it lead to a very, very good productive discussion even though at one point I was asked, “what translation are you using?”  The New American Standard Bible was my response (there’s virtually no difference here with the verses in the New World Translation). 

 

 

So they pretty much asked me to explain how this can possibly fit with I Peter 3:18 which says in part, “He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.”  At this point of our relationship and “Bible study,” we can all be a little more frank with each other (and there’s been a good number of times when we laugh) so I literally said, “the organization is teaching you to see that 'being made alive in the spirit is the same thing as being ‘made into’ a spirit.'”  Surprisingly, this wasn’t argued and they allowed me to continue.  The purpose was two fold here:

  1. Demonstrate that the organization is engaged in eisegisis (reading something that isn’t there)
  2. Flatly contradict what was said/they believe with the following statement in the paragraph:
    1. Jesus was alive again as a mighty spirit person! What Does the Bible Really Teach? 2005, 2014 revision p. 74

 

I was asked by the elder, “would you please explain how a spirit can have a physical body?”  He excused himself to the bathroom.  So for this I again went back to John 2.  Here’s the question/statement used with the custodian’s husband, “There are two types of prophets, true prophets and false ones.”  We both agreed that Jesus was a true prophet.  I said, "Jesus predicted He was going to raise himself back with his physical body." 


The significance of that is this (I didn't openly speak these):

  1. I placed the custodian's husband in a conundrum: Place his belief in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society or place his belief in the Bible (for these verses, I'd say the New World Translation applies)-either way they plainly contradict one another.  Which one would "win?" The inspired Word of God or a manmade organization?
  2.  If Jesus didn’t come back to life with the same physical body, He would be a liar.  Jesus obviously never lied.
  3. To know He would rise on the third day would mean He was conscious which again goes against the belief of "soul sleep" that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society "preaches."
  4. God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24, 3:15, 13:30).  Jesus raised himself.  Therefore, Jesus is fully God as Colossians 2:9 says (except in the New World Translation)

 

I then explained how our bodies are made alive because of the blood that pumps through it (the elder had come back by now).  I contrasted that with “being made alive in the spirit.”  I went back into Luke 24 at this point.  For our context, I started with the account of “The Road to Emmaus” (Luke 24:13-35).  Then I was able to really take the time to explain what happened in verses 36-43:

 

36: Jesus appeared to them as they were most likely in a closed room.  They agreed this was the case.

37: They thought they saw a spirit.

38: Jesus affirms that He is NOT a spirit. 

39: Spirits are not physically handled.  Jesus commands them to touch him. 

41-43: Further affirmation that he is NOT a spirit as He asks for food.  

 

They brought in how sometimes a spirit can manifest itself physically.  They tried tying this directly to Jesus.  However, I gently reminded them that Jesus said he was NOT a spirit using Jesus' own words.  

 

I explained that the physical body “powered” by blood has it’s limitations.  The body “made alive in the spirit” is capable of more even though it resides in the physical body.  The body made alive by the spirit has some extra capabilities.  At this point, I heard something MAJOR-the custodian’s husband OPENLY admitted that Jesus was raised with a physical body.

 

This led to them asking a little about “what is the spirit within a person?”  This was a question that I wasn’t expecting.  If you’re not a Witness, they are there to “teach” and you are what they call the “study” so you are to learn.  Taking the time to talk with them about this book and bringing the verses under the guidance of the Holy Spirit has allowed me to build “capital” and today they felt comfortable enough in our relationship that they can now ask me a question so they understand more what I believe.  Side note-I saw a presentation that Witnesses believe that Christians don't really appreciate the Bible.  If that's the case, these sessions we've spent with one another has been steadily eroding this notion.  

 

I openly stated, “I know at times we see different things in the Scriptures.  I want to take the time to ensure you understand where I’m coming from.  I want to make sure we aren't talking past one another.”  (This happens all too often when discussing the Trinity).  They gave an unspoken agreement and I was able to talk about the following verses:

 

2 Corinthians 4:16 (New World Translation) Therefore, we do not give up, but even if the man we are outside is wasting away, certainly the man we are inside is being renewed from day to day.

 

2 Corinthians 3:18 (New World Translation) And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, exactly as it is done by Jehovah the Spirit.

 

Romans 8:10 (New World Translation) But if Christ is in union with you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. [Note: The New World Translation adds the word “union”]

 

To give them the floor I asked for them to quickly explain I Thessalonians 4:15-17.  The elder quickly shied away from this as this in part is a “proof texts” that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.  They further said that these verses are “not easily covered.”  I let them go and simply reinforced “that those alive shall be changed.”  At this point, the elder asked me, “Can flesh go into heaven?”  I said, “I know where you’re going, flesh and blood cannot inherit” and laughed a little bit and they did as well as he tried to "get" me.  I then took them back to I Corinthians 15:51, 52 emphasizing the word “changed.”  I was able to briefly explain with our blood that would be considered “perishable" and being “imperishable” is alive in the Spirit.  The elder and the custodian’s husband both looked like he was “processing” what I said. 

 

The custodian's husband then spoke what he was thinking, "we have an inner person to go along with the physical."  I said, "yes." 

 

Time was quickly finishing up as I said I had to get a flat tire fixed but the elder said, “well you know, you're a lot like me, you need to investigate everything.  The main point is this: Jesus died for us, accept him and follow his commands then it’s alright.”  Again, I didn’t wish to belabor any point as he had previously demonstrated he didn't "investigate" these passages which are absolutely crucial and essential to the Christian faith. 

 

Observing their facial expressions they were processing everything said along with seeds being planted along the way. 

 

We set our next appointment as I looked at the elder’s field service card of his appointments.  I am not sure of how any of his other studies are going (about 12 on his paper) but I can only hope and pray that there’s at least one person who might be asking him similar questions within his “territory” to make him question more things for investigation. 

 

Some last items and I’ll be done:

  1. We spend pretty much spent better part of two hours on 2.5 pages.  Since they unconsciously elevate Bible “aids” to the Bible itself, they keep coming so long as we talk.  I'll openly admit, it's been an exercise in patience since the "Bible study."  However, patience and persistence has "paid off" as they are now comfortable enough to questions not related to the material. 
  2. We broke with smiles and handshakes.  Keeping cordial is absolutely key as they “study” with me.     
  3. These guys and their spouses are great friends (they lived with the other as a house was being done).  They spend a lot of time with one another, hopefully they are more candid and will be asking questions amongst themselves.
  4. The custodian’s husband verbally and openly broke with the organization’s belief regarding the resurrection (however briefly but PRAISE God) by openly stating to me, “Jesus was raised in a physical body.”  Significant because that Watchtower veil was lifted at a core belief and said in front of me and I'm not in "Jehovah’s organization." 

I’ll keep praying and ask you to pray that things will keep progressing.    

Chapter 7: Real Hope for Your Loved One Who Have Died-Part I

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Greetings!  It’s been a little bit since I’ve written.  The hustle and bustle Christmas and New Year's coupled with running around and another project I’ve been working on (it’s a big one) prevented any visits.  However, I’m back. 

So to catch you up on things, I’ve been working on a project that spans the history of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.  That’s the only hint you’ll get is here:

 

For over a century, delightful, correct words of truth covering every aspect of life have been presented in the Watch Tower Society’s publications and widely distributed in many languages. 
The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom.  December 15, 1990 p. 26 

 

With that little teaser in mind, let’s turn our attention to our slow slog through the introductory booklet, “What Does the Bible Really Teach?”  The seventh chapter pertains to death, the resurrection, and what happens.  If you take the time to read through this chapter, this is material that is already covered in prior chapters.  There is not a ton that is very new here.  If you happen to be someone who is working with a Witness to get them out of this organization, this is a good chapter to bring back old questions that have been asked.  This is necessary as they may be exposed to a question one time and then simply forget. 

 

There’s not much in here that’s new that you may not know, but here’s how the meeting went.

 

We exchanged pleasantries and checked on how we were doing.  Given the last time I saw them (the custodian’s husband is sick so it’s the gentleman who was very upset when I had him read Phil. 2:5-11) and I almost asked how Christmas went.  I caught myself and we started talking about smartphone cases.  I’ve been having a run of bad luck and we had a pretty good laugh about it.  I had also noticed that the elder had a Field Service Report form to report time spent in the “ministry” trying to get the people to join the organization.  As we turned to the opening questions, it was reiterated that these questions will be answered as we go though the paragraphs in our “bible study.” 

 

There was a heavy emphasis upon Lazarus and how Jehovah and Jesus feel about death.  The first time I answered I ended up giving a long answer.  My response inadvertently spilled over into the next question.  It was a nearly automatic response for them to ask it regardless.  So I simply answered with the same response to ensure they understood. 

 


The fellow who was a stand in for the day talked about a personal experience regarding comfort which is addressed a little in paragraph five.  He was speaking about how he was out in field service and approached a guy.  The guy said “Merry Christmas.”  I immediately interjected, “that went nowhere.”  A lot of laughter ensues.  Once we were done laughing, he talked further how during the holiday season people get depressed and this guy was no different.  He ended up being unable to talk at all.  This was used as a springboard into Lazarus. 

 

I had addressed Lazarus previously and what the bible speaks about in relation to Lazarus in Luke 19, which the organization conveniently leaves out.  This of course went to “soul sleep” which the organization believes is “biblical truth.” 

 

The thirteenth paragraph is the one that was interesting as everything is ascribed to Jehovah as the sole creator.  I didn’t press them but just read John 1:3 or any other verse that pertains to Jesus as the creator. Look to the section “Creator” here.  Those were just some of the verses that came to mind. 

 

The fifteenth and sixteenth paragraphs speak about the resurrection.  They asked me who will get resurrected.  I said, “there’s a resurrection of the just and the unjust.”  It took me a moment but I had to look up where that one was from-Acts 24:15.  The seventeenth paragraph speaks about John 5:28, 29 and emphasizes the word all.  Make a note of that and this becomes a slight bit of contention later on. 

 

An interesting point that I didn’t bring up is partially mentioned in the next paragraph.  Hebrews 11 is mentioned regarding the Old Testament/Hebrew Scripture saints.  The organization talks of people living on earth.  However, it’s interesting if we in the present day are to model our behavior, we should be like these individuals in verse 16 that says, “But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven” (New World Translation).

 

The nineteenth and twentieth paragraphs is were I brought up the objection.  Remember the line where “everyone would be resurrected?”  Well that seemingly went by the way side.  The first three lines simply say, “What about all the prowl who did not serve or obey Jehovah because they never knew about him?  These billions of “unrighteous” ones will not be forgotten.  They too will be resurrected and given time to learn about the true God and to serve him.  Biblically speaking, the organization doesn’t really look much at this verse: For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable” (New World Translation).  I merely asked this, “what about those who heard the true message of the gospel and completely rejected it?”  The answer I got in response was to read paragraph 20.

 

I read it and didn’t feel satisfied with the answer at all.  I said, the bible says that all will be resurrected (just and unjust).  The early conversation for this chapter says the exact same thing.  However, now there’s a difference (contradiction).  So I said, “please let me clarify.  We talked about the just.  There is the unjust.  Now we have a segment of the unjust (being those who rejected the gospel) and this now means they are to not be resurrected?  The second Witness held his temper this time but you could see from his facial expression that he seemed to have “got it.” 

 

The main elder at this point could only reply to “look at the Appendix” and that will give further insight.  The paragraphs don’t have enough space to expound upon everything.  From there we were done with the study portion.  The elder asked to use the bathroom.  While sitting with the now stumped Witness, I asked how his grandkids were doing.  Everything was fine and I figured, to ask another question.  I asked if he had seen the Leah Remini documentary, “Leaving Scientology.”  He hadn’t.  So I brought the following chart to mind I found online recently. 

 

So he said he knows nothing about Scientology so I was afforded the opportunity to speak a little about the foundation of this group.  I was able to speak about how one advances and speak in a loose parallel regarding how the organization operates.  By this time the main elder was back out from the bathroom and he dropped the “C” word-cult.  He just started speaking about cults without a problem even though he doesn’t realize he is in one when you define it based on information here in this page.  He was talking about the problems and the secrecy involved in cults.  However, he seems to not correlate the Watchtower’s actions with that of Scientology.  He spoke about how Leah Remini had left and there are other defectors.  They are now working to expose the inner workings.  As they are saying this, I just sat and realized these two know absolutely nothing regarding the former Witness community and how they’ve been working at exposing the organization.  This is just one such website: JW Leaks

 

With that he also said how Jesus is the head of their congregation.  Even though he believes that, he doesn’t recognize that everything starts and is run by the governing body.    We closed things down for the day as they are there for 1.5 hours.  Pray that the direct contradiction within the material won’t settle with the stand in Witness.  Please continue to pray for my JW friends. 

Who Is Jesus Part II

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Today was a very interesting one and we got to one of the core Watchtower doctrines.  I open the door and the main conductor (who is one of the local hall elders) says, “you look like you’ve been losing weight.”  I’m like, “I don’t think I am but it’s possible.”  Before we got to that, the main conductor was back and we caught up.  They wanted to know how my week went at work.  So I filled them in.  In short, I’m doing work and someone else is taking the credit for it.  Hence he doesn’t have to do anything.  It happens but whatever.  We chatted about situations like that in the workplace.  The main conductor is having an inspection at work.  He said “I’ve been quite busy and I know what it’s like.”

So we start digging in with a slight recap from last week.  The other Witness (the janitor’s husband) says, “I was looking for that verse that has the word “other” inserted.  I showed him where it was (Colossians 1:16, 17) and we had a bit of a conversation with this.  He said there was a verse that we talked about where it was Jehovah who worked as creator (Isaiah 44:24 where Jehovah acts alone).  The main conductor wasn’t very pleased and we talked about the term “firstborn.”  I read the definition from the “Annotated Strong’s Dictionary” in the back of my New American Standard.  The conductor immediately rejected the notion regarding Jesus being anything but first created.  I re-explained everything such as the children of Israel naming order from the Old Testament/Greek Scriptures to where they are listed in Revelation.  We ended up in the Revelation 7 which is where Judah is listed as the first tribe.  This led into a brief discussion of the 144,000.  I flat out asked after they explained, “so half of the verse is figurative (the tribal names) and the other half is literal (the 12,000 per tribe).  The response I received was along the lines of, “since Jehovah is done with Israel, it is a spiritual group.”  In my mind, I was thinking, “if God is truly done, why has Israel come back together as a state in 1948?  I spoke to the 144,000 as best I could and bought in the term “other sheep” which they are part of.  I spoke how the Mormons consider the “other sheep” to be the Native Americans.  They started laughing at that notion.  We were actually able to bring in Nelson Barbour into the conversation a little as well since he and Charles Take Russell associated with one another. 

So we stated at this point digging into the text.  We picked up on page 42, paragraph 15.  Nothing super notable happened as we went through.  However, on page 46, the verse referenced at the top of the page is I Peter 2:21-23 (New World Translation), In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you,+ leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. 22  He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. 23  When he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One who judges righteously. 

As an elder, he is well aware that he has access to the “secretive” elder’s manual titled, Shepherd the Flock of God.  There are the monthly Body of Elder’s Manuals and Letters.  There’s the child abuse database that the Watchtower will not acknowledge.  Here’s one story regarding it here at PBS.

The one website that deals with this issues is Silent Lambs. 

Here’s another resource that you may find handy for insight.

Back to our subject matter.  The last two paragraphs were where we spend 45 minutes in deep discussion.

I asked the question, “What does the organization believe about the resurrection of Jesus?”  The elder said, “We believe what the bible teaches.”  So I ask, “what happened to Jesus’ body?”  The answer I got was, “Jehovah dissolved it into nothing.”  That was my time to capitalize on this.  So I said, let’s read I Peter 3:18.  It’s rendered in the New World Translation this way, For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 

Notice the words, “made alive in the spirit.”  The Jehovah’s Witness essentially sees, “Jesus was made into a spirit.”  This is where things got interesting.  The main conductor had to use the bathroom so I waited for him to get back and I said, “this isn’t completely fitting with what I see in the bible, do you mind taking a look at some verses?”  “Of course not” is the response I get.  So here we go, I read the following verses :

Matthew 27:60-66

John 2:18-21

Luke 24:37-43

From there, I explained things.  Let’s address each one:

I Peter 3:18-I explained that being made alive in the spirit is completely different from being made into a spirit. 

Matthew 27:60-66-The question I asked is this, “if Jesus was to be raised as a spirit, what really was the point of the rock in front of the tomb since Jehovah was ‘going to dissolve the body (the guards would have prevented the body from being taken)?’” 

John 2:18-21-The simple question is this, “How could Jesus raise up a physical body if it was going to be dissolved and he be raised as a spirit?”  This is the set of verses that became a HUGE sticking point.

Luke 24:37-43-“Why is Jesus openly declaring that he is NOT a spirit and demonstrates this by being handled and eating food?”

I posed all of this as an “individual who’s on the outside looking in.”  I wanted a good explanation. 

This is where the battle began.  On one hand, as I’m asking these questions, the other JW admitted, “I see why you’re saying there’s a physical body for Jesus at the resurrection (that was a big open admission but the elder quickly tried to take control).

The notion of “believing what the bible teaches” was paid lip service.  The verses above are not only what the organization refuses to believe but it’s in stark contrast with organizational teaching.  That’s the battle-is the bible correct which contradicts the organization or the organization correct which contradicts the bible?

So the elder “strikes back.”  The most devastating set of verses was Luke to him where Jesus is declaring, “I’m not a spirit.”  He says, well you know, the bible says, “flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of heaven.”  I wholeheartedly agreed with him (I Corinthians 15:50).  He bought in Hebrews 9:12, 13 as well.  I said was able to directly address using I Peter 3:18 (made alive in the spirit) and Luke 24:37-43.  I responded that Jesus prior to his death had a body just like ours where blood is “what made it go.”  However, his resurrection body was one that wasn’t made alive by blood, but it was “made alive by the spirit.”  I again agreed with the verse in Hebrews.  However, in the Watchtower mindset, one becomes a “spirit creature” when resurrected. 

He stated that angels can materialize and take different forms.  This again I agreed with.  However, if Jesus would have done that he’d have violated I Peter since it would be considered “deceit” in the aspect that he would have “manufactured" the wounds in his body.  The janitor’s husband bought up the “sons of God and daughters of men” from Genesis.  I agreed that could have been the case.  The conductor further tried to bring in another set of scriptures.  He brought up the account on the Road to Emmaus covered in Luke 24:13-22.  He asked me for a quick synopsis of this passage.  So I gave it and knowing the little bit about Watchtower theology, I knew where he was going to go.  He focused on verse 16 which says (NWT), but their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 

So I used a simple word picture as an illustration.  I said, (pointing to the elder) you are Jesus in this instance.  John (not the janitor’s husband’s real name) and myself are on the road to Emmaus.  Jesus (elder) didn’t change his form.  The eyes of myself and John were prevented. We were personally prevented, you (Jesus) didn’t change at all nor does the scriptures say so.  This didn’t go over well since the organization teaches Jesus materialized in different forms.  So he goes for soul sleep….

I’m asked to look at Ecclesiastes 9:5.  I’m like isn’t this about soul sleep?  They said, yes it is.  Hence Jesus could not have raised himself from the grave.  I thought about connecting this to Romans 10:9 and I Peter 1:21 where “God raised Jesus” from the dead and connecting this back to John 2:18-21.  However, I didn’t.  The seed was already planted and I was allowing them to do damage control at this point.  I briefly bought in Revelation 6:9-11 where individuals who were slain are “crying out and speaking”  This means one is conscious after death.  However, I allowed them to give an explanation and again asked, “what’s symbolic and what’s literal?  So I said, we can address soul sleep another day.  Both sides agreed to finish for the day. 

Normally they want to chit chat but today was not the day.  Please pray for these fellas as in the case of one (janitor’s husband) he is receptive in some ways to what I say and he’s making the attempt to “be a Barean” and search the scriptures with what I’m saying.  The elder is a bit of a different matter.  He listens to what I have to say yet I get the Watchtower “scripted answer.”  Also, I was requested to find information on what the Jews thought in relation to the afterlife, is it a conscious existence or an unconscious one?  Please remember to pray for these folks.